1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,630 [Music] 2 00:00:11,270 --> 00:00:08,470 welcome to the skeptic zone 3 00:00:16,820 --> 00:00:11,280 the podcast from australia for science 4 00:00:23,590 --> 00:00:16,830 and reason 5 00:00:25,429 --> 00:00:23,600 [Music] 6 00:00:28,429 --> 00:00:25,439 yes it's the skeptic zone podcast 7 00:00:31,189 --> 00:00:28,439 episode number 8 00:00:33,910 --> 00:00:31,199 626 for the 11th of october 9 00:00:34,549 --> 00:00:33,920 2020. and wait wait a second wait a 10 00:00:37,510 --> 00:00:34,559 second 11 00:00:38,389 --> 00:00:37,520 6 2 6 there's a repeated number two 12 00:00:40,790 --> 00:00:38,399 sixes 13 00:00:41,510 --> 00:00:40,800 for the 11th of october 11 is one and 14 00:00:44,549 --> 00:00:41,520 one 15 00:00:46,950 --> 00:00:44,559 twenty twenty two zero two zero oh 16 00:00:48,069 --> 00:00:46,960 the numerologists will be having a field 17 00:00:49,910 --> 00:00:48,079 day with that 18 00:00:51,430 --> 00:00:49,920 and for those people who keep a track on 19 00:00:53,750 --> 00:00:51,440 these sort of things it's a bright 20 00:00:55,830 --> 00:00:53,760 sunny day here in sydney australia and i 21 00:00:57,910 --> 00:00:55,840 think it's going to get quite warm 26 22 00:00:59,349 --> 00:00:57,920 degrees later on this afternoon i saw in 23 00:01:01,110 --> 00:00:59,359 the forecast 24 00:01:03,830 --> 00:01:01,120 coming up on this week's show part two 25 00:01:06,070 --> 00:01:03,840 of the interview with brian dear 26 00:01:07,109 --> 00:01:06,080 conducted by heidi robinson the raw 27 00:01:09,350 --> 00:01:07,119 skeptic 28 00:01:10,469 --> 00:01:09,360 part one last week was very very 29 00:01:12,310 --> 00:01:10,479 interesting and we got 30 00:01:13,590 --> 00:01:12,320 a lot of good comments back from that 31 00:01:16,870 --> 00:01:13,600 and this week in part 32 00:01:18,550 --> 00:01:16,880 two brian dear tells heidi robinson why 33 00:01:21,749 --> 00:01:18,560 andrew wakefield was 34 00:01:26,149 --> 00:01:21,759 let go from the royal free hospital 35 00:01:29,749 --> 00:01:26,159 some of his conflicts of interests and 36 00:01:31,429 --> 00:01:29,759 buying blood from children 37 00:01:33,350 --> 00:01:31,439 and if that were not enough you'll hear 38 00:01:36,149 --> 00:01:33,360 about some of brian dear's 39 00:01:38,469 --> 00:01:36,159 other investigations and just to remind 40 00:01:39,990 --> 00:01:38,479 you this is all about the book 41 00:01:41,510 --> 00:01:40,000 outlining the activities of andrew 42 00:01:46,310 --> 00:01:41,520 wakefield the 43 00:01:48,789 --> 00:01:46,320 then doctor who stood up the mmr autism 44 00:01:50,710 --> 00:01:48,799 so-called debate and controversy 45 00:01:53,030 --> 00:01:50,720 following that it's the latest news from 46 00:01:56,149 --> 00:01:53,040 the australian skeptics see what has 47 00:01:57,270 --> 00:01:56,159 caught the eye of tim mendom and then 48 00:01:59,749 --> 00:01:57,280 tim mendem 49 00:02:00,870 --> 00:01:59,759 appears in person so to speak with the 50 00:02:03,910 --> 00:02:00,880 book of tim 51 00:02:04,389 --> 00:02:03,920 this week a review a review of a flat 52 00:02:07,109 --> 00:02:04,399 earth 53 00:02:10,389 --> 00:02:07,119 website then to round off the show it's 54 00:02:14,390 --> 00:02:10,399 another in our continuing series of 55 00:02:16,710 --> 00:02:14,400 diving through the archive at trove 56 00:02:18,309 --> 00:02:16,720 the national library of australia and 57 00:02:21,270 --> 00:02:18,319 this week we look for the term 58 00:02:22,630 --> 00:02:21,280 quackery in the decades and decades and 59 00:02:25,350 --> 00:02:22,640 decades of 60 00:02:27,589 --> 00:02:25,360 digitized newspapers and so on now 61 00:02:29,990 --> 00:02:27,599 normally i've recorded the show 62 00:02:32,309 --> 00:02:30,000 hours before this but you know what you 63 00:02:33,030 --> 00:02:32,319 know what this morning i had a leisurely 64 00:02:35,430 --> 00:02:33,040 lion 65 00:02:36,790 --> 00:02:35,440 and why not every now and then it's a 66 00:02:38,710 --> 00:02:36,800 good thing to do 67 00:02:41,030 --> 00:02:38,720 i hope no matter where you are listening 68 00:02:43,350 --> 00:02:41,040 around the world that you do 69 00:02:45,190 --> 00:02:43,360 at least occasionally can have a nice 70 00:02:46,949 --> 00:02:45,200 leisurely lion but now it's time for me 71 00:02:49,350 --> 00:02:46,959 to run downstairs 72 00:02:51,430 --> 00:02:49,360 where's that coffee i think there's a 73 00:02:53,350 --> 00:02:51,440 little bit of coffee left in the pot 74 00:02:55,430 --> 00:02:53,360 yes i'll drain that coffee have some 75 00:02:58,070 --> 00:02:55,440 vegemite toast 76 00:02:59,350 --> 00:02:58,080 good old standby and while i do that i 77 00:03:18,550 --> 00:02:59,360 hope you enjoy 78 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:21,830 it's the raw skeptic report with heidi 79 00:03:30,309 --> 00:03:23,370 robinson 80 00:03:33,430 --> 00:03:30,319 [Music] 81 00:03:36,070 --> 00:03:33,440 hello everyone today i present 82 00:03:38,630 --> 00:03:36,080 part two of my three-part interview with 83 00:03:41,750 --> 00:03:38,640 brian dear the man who wrote the book 84 00:03:43,509 --> 00:03:41,760 the doctor who fooled the world about mr 85 00:03:45,670 --> 00:03:43,519 andrew wakefield 86 00:03:46,710 --> 00:03:45,680 and the so-called link between 87 00:03:50,229 --> 00:03:46,720 vaccinations 88 00:03:52,390 --> 00:03:50,239 and autism today brian tells us 89 00:03:53,750 --> 00:03:52,400 of why wakefield left the royal free 90 00:03:56,309 --> 00:03:53,760 hospital 91 00:03:57,589 --> 00:03:56,319 conflicts of interest buying blood from 92 00:04:01,540 --> 00:03:57,599 children 93 00:04:05,110 --> 00:04:01,550 and some of his other investigations 94 00:04:09,990 --> 00:04:07,429 mr brian dear welcome to the skeptic 95 00:04:11,910 --> 00:04:10,000 zone hello heidi good to be here 96 00:04:13,030 --> 00:04:11,920 another thing i wanted to ask you about 97 00:04:14,309 --> 00:04:13,040 something that i wasn't 98 00:04:16,310 --> 00:04:14,319 well i wasn't aware of a lot of the 99 00:04:17,270 --> 00:04:16,320 things in the book before before i read 100 00:04:18,629 --> 00:04:17,280 it but 101 00:04:20,469 --> 00:04:18,639 one of the things that i thought was 102 00:04:24,070 --> 00:04:20,479 quite telling was 103 00:04:24,870 --> 00:04:24,080 the reason that wakefield left the royal 104 00:04:27,990 --> 00:04:24,880 free 105 00:04:30,950 --> 00:04:28,000 hospital where the the children 106 00:04:31,990 --> 00:04:30,960 had been studied could you run us 107 00:04:34,070 --> 00:04:32,000 through 108 00:04:35,350 --> 00:04:34,080 the uh the reason why he left the 109 00:04:38,150 --> 00:04:35,360 hospital 110 00:04:39,350 --> 00:04:38,160 yes he goes around telling everybody 111 00:04:41,430 --> 00:04:39,360 that the 112 00:04:44,150 --> 00:04:41,440 he's a per he was persecuted by the 113 00:04:46,390 --> 00:04:44,160 medical establishment and by me and 114 00:04:48,310 --> 00:04:46,400 the drug industry and god knows what and 115 00:04:50,390 --> 00:04:48,320 that he's a victim in fact 116 00:04:52,310 --> 00:04:50,400 he was offered by university college 117 00:04:55,189 --> 00:04:52,320 london way back in 118 00:04:56,950 --> 00:04:55,199 2000 late 2000 the closing days of the 119 00:05:00,230 --> 00:04:56,960 20th century 120 00:05:02,150 --> 00:05:00,240 he was offered by the medical school and 121 00:05:03,990 --> 00:05:02,160 by the university and university college 122 00:05:05,189 --> 00:05:04,000 london is one of the most prestigious 123 00:05:07,110 --> 00:05:05,199 and certainly among the most 124 00:05:08,070 --> 00:05:07,120 scientifically capable universities in 125 00:05:10,710 --> 00:05:08,080 the world 126 00:05:11,189 --> 00:05:10,720 he was offered the opportunity with 127 00:05:14,790 --> 00:05:11,199 their 128 00:05:17,830 --> 00:05:14,800 support to do a proper replication study 129 00:05:20,310 --> 00:05:17,840 with 150 children not 12 with 130 00:05:22,230 --> 00:05:20,320 molecular testing and with two labs 131 00:05:23,749 --> 00:05:22,240 shadowing it so be run in parallel 132 00:05:25,830 --> 00:05:23,759 across three labs 133 00:05:28,230 --> 00:05:25,840 under his direction this project would 134 00:05:31,510 --> 00:05:28,240 be and it would answer the question 135 00:05:35,749 --> 00:05:31,520 definitively whether his hypothesis 136 00:05:38,950 --> 00:05:35,759 was born out or not and he initially 137 00:05:41,350 --> 00:05:38,960 as the century ended said yes he was 138 00:05:42,950 --> 00:05:41,360 he he would do it and he'd been this 139 00:05:44,230 --> 00:05:42,960 deal had been hatched not by 140 00:05:45,990 --> 00:05:44,240 just him and his department it was 141 00:05:48,390 --> 00:05:46,000 hatched by the president 142 00:05:50,390 --> 00:05:48,400 and provost of university college london 143 00:05:52,550 --> 00:05:50,400 who who wrote to him with this 144 00:05:54,150 --> 00:05:52,560 with this proposition and wayford 145 00:05:56,950 --> 00:05:54,160 refused to do it 146 00:05:58,469 --> 00:05:56,960 and uh he refused to do a replication 147 00:06:00,150 --> 00:05:58,479 study this study has never been 148 00:06:02,309 --> 00:06:00,160 replicated the findings of this paper 149 00:06:03,749 --> 00:06:02,319 have never been replicated anywhere in 150 00:06:05,830 --> 00:06:03,759 the world although wakefield 151 00:06:07,350 --> 00:06:05,840 and his people say oh there's 15 studies 152 00:06:07,909 --> 00:06:07,360 and all that kind of stuff they come up 153 00:06:10,309 --> 00:06:07,919 with 154 00:06:12,230 --> 00:06:10,319 never been replicated refused to do it 155 00:06:13,590 --> 00:06:12,240 so give it and he said the reason he 156 00:06:15,189 --> 00:06:13,600 wouldn't do it was because it would 157 00:06:18,629 --> 00:06:15,199 infringe his academic 158 00:06:20,870 --> 00:06:18,639 freedom to answer this question when 159 00:06:22,870 --> 00:06:20,880 the uk at that time was absolutely 160 00:06:24,150 --> 00:06:22,880 galvanized parents were terrified about 161 00:06:24,950 --> 00:06:24,160 the thought of vaccinating their 162 00:06:26,710 --> 00:06:24,960 children 163 00:06:28,710 --> 00:06:26,720 parents with autism were blaming 164 00:06:30,230 --> 00:06:28,720 themselves we were heading towards 165 00:06:33,189 --> 00:06:30,240 disease outbreaks 166 00:06:34,230 --> 00:06:33,199 and he believed infringed his academic 167 00:06:36,710 --> 00:06:34,240 freedom 168 00:06:39,270 --> 00:06:36,720 to carry out this project requested of 169 00:06:41,909 --> 00:06:39,280 him by university college london 170 00:06:43,670 --> 00:06:41,919 so that it then took them because 171 00:06:45,749 --> 00:06:43,680 academics do have freedom and do have 172 00:06:47,909 --> 00:06:45,759 tenure then took them two years 173 00:06:49,990 --> 00:06:47,919 to get him out and eventually they got 174 00:06:50,790 --> 00:06:50,000 him out that's basically the deal when 175 00:06:54,150 --> 00:06:50,800 he left 176 00:06:55,110 --> 00:06:54,160 left his last academic post he refused 177 00:06:56,710 --> 00:06:55,120 to do 178 00:06:59,430 --> 00:06:56,720 the work that would have answered the 179 00:07:02,710 --> 00:06:59,440 question that parents were asking 180 00:07:03,510 --> 00:07:02,720 and continue to ask to this day that's 181 00:07:06,469 --> 00:07:03,520 right andy 182 00:07:06,950 --> 00:07:06,479 and not only uh giving an answer to 183 00:07:10,070 --> 00:07:06,960 those 184 00:07:11,990 --> 00:07:10,080 um very desperate parents who who just 185 00:07:15,029 --> 00:07:12,000 wanted answers but also 186 00:07:16,629 --> 00:07:15,039 it would have exonerated him had he had 187 00:07:19,430 --> 00:07:16,639 he come forward and 188 00:07:20,790 --> 00:07:19,440 successfully replicated the findings of 189 00:07:22,550 --> 00:07:20,800 the first study 190 00:07:24,629 --> 00:07:22,560 yes he would have been vindicated it was 191 00:07:26,390 --> 00:07:24,639 enough for what what scientist would 192 00:07:28,150 --> 00:07:26,400 turn that offer down when you think of 193 00:07:29,990 --> 00:07:28,160 scientists in academia 194 00:07:31,830 --> 00:07:30,000 who are constantly scraping around for 195 00:07:33,270 --> 00:07:31,840 money and scraping around to get 196 00:07:35,270 --> 00:07:33,280 interest in their work 197 00:07:36,870 --> 00:07:35,280 and they're offered all the support of a 198 00:07:38,790 --> 00:07:36,880 major university 199 00:07:39,990 --> 00:07:38,800 to do something that would either 200 00:07:43,189 --> 00:07:40,000 vindicate or 201 00:07:46,950 --> 00:07:43,199 or refute his hypothesis 202 00:07:49,270 --> 00:07:46,960 and he refused to do it refused to do it 203 00:07:51,189 --> 00:07:49,280 the the children in in the study the 12 204 00:07:53,350 --> 00:07:51,199 children who were involved in the study 205 00:07:55,670 --> 00:07:53,360 you go through in your book all of the 206 00:07:57,670 --> 00:07:55,680 the battery of tests that they were 207 00:08:00,869 --> 00:07:57,680 subjected to and they they didn't 208 00:08:03,110 --> 00:08:00,879 it doesn't sound pleasant for an adult 209 00:08:05,029 --> 00:08:03,120 let alone a child who may be 210 00:08:06,629 --> 00:08:05,039 uh having some developmental problems 211 00:08:09,670 --> 00:08:06,639 and not really understanding 212 00:08:12,950 --> 00:08:09,680 what's going on can you tell me how 213 00:08:15,510 --> 00:08:12,960 he got ethics approval 214 00:08:17,909 --> 00:08:15,520 for for the study or in fact did he get 215 00:08:19,510 --> 00:08:17,919 ethics approval for the study 216 00:08:21,589 --> 00:08:19,520 well he didn't get ethics approval for 217 00:08:23,510 --> 00:08:21,599 this study and ultimately this went into 218 00:08:24,869 --> 00:08:23,520 the high court and the judge in the high 219 00:08:26,469 --> 00:08:24,879 court hearing said that 220 00:08:28,150 --> 00:08:26,479 the claim in the paper that it had 221 00:08:30,070 --> 00:08:28,160 ethics approval 222 00:08:31,830 --> 00:08:30,080 because it had that uh statement in the 223 00:08:33,190 --> 00:08:31,840 paper was false and should never have 224 00:08:35,909 --> 00:08:33,200 been published 225 00:08:38,230 --> 00:08:35,919 what they did was wakeford had 226 00:08:39,909 --> 00:08:38,240 previously got some idea about 227 00:08:42,149 --> 00:08:39,919 a different study with a different 228 00:08:43,110 --> 00:08:42,159 number of children involving a different 229 00:08:46,630 --> 00:08:43,120 vaccine 230 00:08:49,670 --> 00:08:46,640 and that was put to the ethics committee 231 00:08:51,269 --> 00:08:49,680 and um the ethics committee approved it 232 00:08:52,630 --> 00:08:51,279 but it wasn't the study of this these 233 00:08:54,150 --> 00:08:52,640 children it was a study of a different 234 00:08:56,470 --> 00:08:54,160 as i say a different vaccine 235 00:08:58,230 --> 00:08:56,480 a different developmental issue and a 236 00:09:01,750 --> 00:08:58,240 different number of children 237 00:09:03,910 --> 00:09:01,760 and ultimately that study was never done 238 00:09:05,350 --> 00:09:03,920 so there was ethics approval for a study 239 00:09:06,949 --> 00:09:05,360 that was never carried out 240 00:09:09,430 --> 00:09:06,959 there was no ethics approval for this 241 00:09:11,350 --> 00:09:09,440 paper even though the paper itself 242 00:09:13,269 --> 00:09:11,360 claimed that it was approved by the 243 00:09:15,829 --> 00:09:13,279 ethics committee and again the other 244 00:09:18,790 --> 00:09:15,839 thing in the same statement in the paper 245 00:09:20,710 --> 00:09:18,800 the money because the the money from the 246 00:09:22,870 --> 00:09:20,720 lawyer started to come in 247 00:09:24,070 --> 00:09:22,880 that first an initial check came into 248 00:09:27,430 --> 00:09:24,080 the medical school 249 00:09:29,110 --> 00:09:27,440 hell what's this 250 00:09:30,949 --> 00:09:29,120 check from a firm of lawyers to do 251 00:09:33,430 --> 00:09:30,959 research at our hospital 252 00:09:36,630 --> 00:09:33,440 and the dean got very um exercised over 253 00:09:39,670 --> 00:09:36,640 this and started making inquiries and 254 00:09:40,949 --> 00:09:39,680 realized that it this was um ethically 255 00:09:42,870 --> 00:09:40,959 unacceptable to 256 00:09:44,949 --> 00:09:42,880 have research at his hospital being paid 257 00:09:46,550 --> 00:09:44,959 for by female lawyers 258 00:09:48,389 --> 00:09:46,560 none of this was ever disclosed and this 259 00:09:50,310 --> 00:09:48,399 was now mediated in confidential 260 00:09:52,310 --> 00:09:50,320 correspondence within the school 261 00:09:53,750 --> 00:09:52,320 what then happened was that the initial 262 00:09:56,389 --> 00:09:53,760 check from the lawyers 263 00:09:57,990 --> 00:09:56,399 was received by the medical school and 264 00:10:01,190 --> 00:09:58,000 then transferred 265 00:10:02,550 --> 00:10:01,200 to an account held by the hospital 266 00:10:04,630 --> 00:10:02,560 because these are different bodies the 267 00:10:07,910 --> 00:10:04,640 medical school is an education 268 00:10:10,710 --> 00:10:07,920 uh part of the is a is an adjunct of the 269 00:10:12,470 --> 00:10:10,720 uk department of education and then the 270 00:10:14,150 --> 00:10:12,480 hospital which comes under the 271 00:10:16,550 --> 00:10:14,160 department of health 272 00:10:17,990 --> 00:10:16,560 the the money was transferred from the 273 00:10:20,790 --> 00:10:18,000 medical school 274 00:10:21,750 --> 00:10:20,800 to the hospitals and a fund that was run 275 00:10:25,350 --> 00:10:21,760 as a charity 276 00:10:26,870 --> 00:10:25,360 uh entity by the hospital received by 277 00:10:29,829 --> 00:10:26,880 that charity entity 278 00:10:31,750 --> 00:10:29,839 and then paid back to wakefield's work 279 00:10:34,310 --> 00:10:31,760 in the medical school 280 00:10:36,150 --> 00:10:34,320 and then not declared in the paper so 281 00:10:38,470 --> 00:10:36,160 the the hospital fund 282 00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:38,480 was called the special trustees fund the 283 00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:39,760 hospital fund 284 00:10:43,430 --> 00:10:41,920 was acknowledged in the paper as a 285 00:10:45,430 --> 00:10:43,440 source of funding 286 00:10:47,350 --> 00:10:45,440 but the money that went into that fund 287 00:10:48,790 --> 00:10:47,360 that then came back to wakefield for his 288 00:10:51,829 --> 00:10:48,800 work in the medical school 289 00:10:54,150 --> 00:10:51,839 was never acknowledged yeah i think 290 00:10:56,389 --> 00:10:54,160 absolutely extraordinary i've actually 291 00:10:58,389 --> 00:10:56,399 made a a note here 292 00:10:59,509 --> 00:10:58,399 in in the notes i prepared for the this 293 00:11:01,110 --> 00:10:59,519 interview 294 00:11:02,630 --> 00:11:01,120 if i could just read it out directly 295 00:11:05,910 --> 00:11:02,640 from the book 296 00:11:08,550 --> 00:11:05,920 and this is a quote from the main 297 00:11:09,829 --> 00:11:08,560 lawyer who was dealing with wakefield 298 00:11:14,389 --> 00:11:09,839 who was involved 299 00:11:17,509 --> 00:11:14,399 richard barr and i just read out a quote 300 00:11:18,470 --> 00:11:17,519 directly from the book quote i have 301 00:11:21,590 --> 00:11:18,480 mentioned to you 302 00:11:22,310 --> 00:11:21,600 before that the prime of objective is to 303 00:11:25,670 --> 00:11:22,320 produce 304 00:11:27,110 --> 00:11:25,680 unassailable evidence in court so as to 305 00:11:30,310 --> 00:11:27,120 convince a court 306 00:11:32,870 --> 00:11:30,320 that these vaccines are dangerous 307 00:11:34,630 --> 00:11:32,880 end quote the lawyer reminded the doctor 308 00:11:37,990 --> 00:11:34,640 in a confidential letter 309 00:11:40,470 --> 00:11:38,000 six months before the landsat report now 310 00:11:41,110 --> 00:11:40,480 if i don't if that's not damning 311 00:11:43,509 --> 00:11:41,120 evidence 312 00:11:44,150 --> 00:11:43,519 i don't know what is what does wakefield 313 00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:44,160 say to 314 00:11:48,150 --> 00:11:47,040 all of these findings that yourself the 315 00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:48,160 gmc 316 00:11:52,550 --> 00:11:50,560 found as well what what does he say to 317 00:11:54,310 --> 00:11:52,560 all these findings does he just flat out 318 00:11:56,790 --> 00:11:54,320 deny them or 319 00:11:57,990 --> 00:11:56,800 what's the justification he says it's 320 00:12:00,550 --> 00:11:58,000 all lies 321 00:12:02,069 --> 00:12:00,560 he says that uh the story i've told over 322 00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:02,079 all these years and 323 00:12:05,430 --> 00:12:04,800 his lies he says he he that he never had 324 00:12:07,430 --> 00:12:05,440 a patent 325 00:12:10,710 --> 00:12:07,440 uh he never had this secret deal with 326 00:12:13,110 --> 00:12:10,720 the lawyers he claims that the his work 327 00:12:15,350 --> 00:12:13,120 for the lawyers only began after the 328 00:12:17,509 --> 00:12:15,360 children had been seen at the hospital 329 00:12:18,949 --> 00:12:17,519 uh he denies absolutely everything the 330 00:12:21,910 --> 00:12:18,959 only thing 331 00:12:24,150 --> 00:12:21,920 that he's ever acknowledged is that a 332 00:12:26,230 --> 00:12:24,160 videotape which i obtained 333 00:12:27,509 --> 00:12:26,240 in which he's telling parents at a 334 00:12:30,069 --> 00:12:27,519 parent's meeting in 335 00:12:31,910 --> 00:12:30,079 sacramento california and they're all 336 00:12:35,590 --> 00:12:31,920 laughing about this he tells them 337 00:12:37,509 --> 00:12:35,600 that he'd bought blood you have to get 338 00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:37,519 i mean i find it hard even think about 339 00:12:42,470 --> 00:12:38,880 it now that he bought 340 00:12:43,910 --> 00:12:42,480 blood from children at a birthday party 341 00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:43,920 given for his son 342 00:12:47,670 --> 00:12:45,920 some of them these children as young as 343 00:12:50,629 --> 00:12:47,680 four years old who he said 344 00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:50,639 cried fainted and vomited at this 345 00:12:54,949 --> 00:12:52,240 birthday party 346 00:12:56,389 --> 00:12:54,959 uh where he acknowled of which he 347 00:12:59,430 --> 00:12:56,399 acknowledges 348 00:13:00,310 --> 00:12:59,440 that he is that man he says that there 349 00:13:01,910 --> 00:13:00,320 never was 350 00:13:03,430 --> 00:13:01,920 he never bought the there was no 351 00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:03,440 purchase of the blood the children were 352 00:13:05,990 --> 00:13:05,200 given the five pounds afterwards so it's 353 00:13:08,389 --> 00:13:06,000 ethically different 354 00:13:10,710 --> 00:13:08,399 from buying it from them uh and that 355 00:13:11,670 --> 00:13:10,720 nobody fainted nobody cried nobody 356 00:13:15,030 --> 00:13:11,680 vomited 357 00:13:17,350 --> 00:13:15,040 but he does admit that he is the man 358 00:13:19,990 --> 00:13:17,360 in that videotape all the rest of it he 359 00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:20,000 denies he says that i'm working for the 360 00:13:23,430 --> 00:13:21,680 pharmaceutical industry 361 00:13:25,590 --> 00:13:23,440 he says that i'm a tool of rupert 362 00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:25,600 murdoch he says that i am a 363 00:13:31,910 --> 00:13:28,880 psychopath and a sociopath 364 00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:31,920 and an incorrigible liar it's all a 365 00:13:35,430 --> 00:13:33,360 complete fabrication 366 00:13:37,110 --> 00:13:35,440 and he says that what he tried the other 367 00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:37,120 thing he tries to do is to suggest that 368 00:13:40,870 --> 00:13:38,160 all this 369 00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:40,880 is just from me and he conveniently 370 00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:42,240 leaves out 371 00:13:47,110 --> 00:13:45,440 a 217-day hearing by the general medical 372 00:13:49,509 --> 00:13:47,120 council where there was a five-member 373 00:13:51,269 --> 00:13:49,519 panel who went into this the fact that 374 00:13:52,310 --> 00:13:51,279 all the allegations were put to him 375 00:13:53,910 --> 00:13:52,320 beforehand 376 00:13:55,990 --> 00:13:53,920 that he had the criminal standard of 377 00:13:58,310 --> 00:13:56,000 sureness in those hearings 378 00:13:59,750 --> 00:13:58,320 that his own counsel said that one of 379 00:14:03,590 --> 00:13:59,760 the charges that was ultimately 380 00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:03,600 on his own council on his behalf who 381 00:14:07,189 --> 00:14:05,040 acknowledged that one of the charges 382 00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:07,199 found proven against him was of 383 00:14:10,550 --> 00:14:09,680 fraud there were four counts of 384 00:14:12,550 --> 00:14:10,560 dishonesty 385 00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:12,560 in this research found proven against 386 00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:14,480 him we've got 387 00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:16,560 parents of the children involved in the 388 00:14:20,069 --> 00:14:18,240 research who come forward and say this 389 00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:20,079 is fraudulent this is a complete 390 00:14:23,750 --> 00:14:21,360 fabrication 391 00:14:25,670 --> 00:14:23,760 the british medical uh journal looked 392 00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:25,680 into all this and described it as an 393 00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:28,880 elaborate fraud he says this is all lies 394 00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:31,680 he did nothing wrong this is all made up 395 00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:32,800 by me 396 00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:35,680 yeah yeah and if i could just go off on 397 00:14:41,110 --> 00:14:38,000 a bit of a tangent here because 398 00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:41,120 uh your your history as an investigative 399 00:14:45,189 --> 00:14:41,920 journalist 400 00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:45,199 uh you've had a special interest during 401 00:14:49,110 --> 00:14:46,480 your career 402 00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:49,120 uh investigating fraud and dishonesty 403 00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:50,320 and shoddy reach 404 00:14:53,829 --> 00:14:52,800 research practices in the pharmaceutical 405 00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:53,839 industry 406 00:14:59,509 --> 00:14:56,880 i think you said in the book uh you know 407 00:15:01,750 --> 00:14:59,519 you had no horse in the race so to speak 408 00:15:04,870 --> 00:15:01,760 of about whether vaccines 409 00:15:05,350 --> 00:15:04,880 uh the mmr did in fact cause autism your 410 00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:05,360 job 411 00:15:10,150 --> 00:15:08,320 as a reporter to was to unearth the 412 00:15:12,949 --> 00:15:10,160 truth and to just report 413 00:15:14,470 --> 00:15:12,959 on what you found so can you just to 414 00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:14,480 speak on that to the audience a little 415 00:15:17,910 --> 00:15:15,120 bit because 416 00:15:18,550 --> 00:15:17,920 um i wasn't aware of of all your other 417 00:15:22,949 --> 00:15:18,560 uh 418 00:15:24,949 --> 00:15:22,959 industry exposing the pharmaceutical 419 00:15:25,350 --> 00:15:24,959 industry and some of their practices can 420 00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:25,360 you 421 00:15:31,990 --> 00:15:30,240 involved with 422 00:15:33,269 --> 00:15:32,000 yeah i mean i came to the sunday times 423 00:15:38,949 --> 00:15:33,279 in in uh 424 00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:38,959 1981 god almighty 1991 that is 425 00:15:44,710 --> 00:15:42,000 that is a long time ago and um 426 00:15:46,629 --> 00:15:44,720 by 1986 i might i'd had earlier than 427 00:15:47,829 --> 00:15:46,639 that i'd had a bit of experience writing 428 00:15:49,590 --> 00:15:47,839 about doctors for 429 00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:49,600 for doctor magazines and things like 430 00:15:53,189 --> 00:15:51,680 that and just little profiles and 431 00:15:55,189 --> 00:15:53,199 bits and pieces and i was quite 432 00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:55,199 interested in doctors and i discovered 433 00:16:00,470 --> 00:15:55,680 that 434 00:16:01,749 --> 00:16:00,480 medical investigation of some kind it 435 00:16:02,710 --> 00:16:01,759 would get on the front of the paper and 436 00:16:04,870 --> 00:16:02,720 if i wrote about 437 00:16:06,230 --> 00:16:04,880 what was my first love really which was 438 00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:06,240 social issues i was the 439 00:16:09,509 --> 00:16:08,480 uk's first social affairs correspondent 440 00:16:12,949 --> 00:16:09,519 so i used to do like 441 00:16:15,350 --> 00:16:12,959 uh housing prisons 442 00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:15,360 poverty all those kind of like uh 443 00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:16,720 stories that 444 00:16:22,069 --> 00:16:19,440 most other journalists would get 445 00:16:23,269 --> 00:16:22,079 involved in i i specialized in that but 446 00:16:24,790 --> 00:16:23,279 i found that if i did 447 00:16:26,629 --> 00:16:24,800 medical stories they got on the front 448 00:16:28,629 --> 00:16:26,639 because it would just well you know the 449 00:16:31,670 --> 00:16:28,639 sunday times being this way that it is 450 00:16:34,069 --> 00:16:31,680 in 1986 was my first story why 451 00:16:35,189 --> 00:16:34,079 i went all around the world i went from 452 00:16:37,189 --> 00:16:35,199 london 453 00:16:38,230 --> 00:16:37,199 well i could have just flown directly to 454 00:16:40,550 --> 00:16:38,240 geelong 455 00:16:42,470 --> 00:16:40,560 uh near melbourne uh and flown back 456 00:16:44,069 --> 00:16:42,480 again but i didn't i i i got an 457 00:16:44,790 --> 00:16:44,079 arrangement whereby i went all around 458 00:16:46,949 --> 00:16:44,800 the world 459 00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:46,959 but i went out and i investigated at 460 00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:48,160 geelong 461 00:16:52,389 --> 00:16:50,480 uh a fraud by a man called michael 462 00:16:53,269 --> 00:16:52,399 briggs who was a british researcher at 463 00:16:56,230 --> 00:16:53,279 geelong 464 00:16:57,590 --> 00:16:56,240 at deakin university where he fabricated 465 00:16:59,829 --> 00:16:57,600 all his work on the 466 00:17:01,509 --> 00:16:59,839 uh early well it wasn't early it was 467 00:17:03,829 --> 00:17:01,519 earlier than now but a generation of 468 00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:03,839 contraceptive pills the triphasic 469 00:17:09,029 --> 00:17:06,480 contraceptive pills and he fabricated 470 00:17:10,870 --> 00:17:09,039 a whole string of studies on that 471 00:17:11,909 --> 00:17:10,880 including animal work and when i finally 472 00:17:14,069 --> 00:17:11,919 got to meet him 473 00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:14,079 i said well where did you do the um 474 00:17:17,590 --> 00:17:15,839 where did you do the work with beagles 475 00:17:19,189 --> 00:17:17,600 he said well at deacon and i said well 476 00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:19,199 i've been to deakin and i would have 477 00:17:22,949 --> 00:17:20,640 heard them barking 478 00:17:25,750 --> 00:17:22,959 um no he made them up so that really got 479 00:17:27,829 --> 00:17:25,760 me interested and that work was done for 480 00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:27,839 well they deny all knowledge that that 481 00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:29,760 he was doing it but uh was 482 00:17:33,909 --> 00:17:31,600 was being done for company which i think 483 00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:33,919 is now gone sharing a g 484 00:17:37,669 --> 00:17:36,080 and taken up by wyatt and various others 485 00:17:39,830 --> 00:17:37,679 so i did that and that really got me 486 00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:39,840 interested in pharmaceuticals as serious 487 00:17:44,310 --> 00:17:41,280 either another another 488 00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:44,320 big one was into the what was then 489 00:17:48,710 --> 00:17:47,200 the welcome foundation which produced a 490 00:17:50,789 --> 00:17:48,720 drug which is still available called 491 00:17:51,590 --> 00:17:50,799 bactrim and ceptin and septa are still 492 00:17:53,669 --> 00:17:51,600 available 493 00:17:54,950 --> 00:17:53,679 and i did a big investigation into that 494 00:17:57,990 --> 00:17:54,960 which showed that the 495 00:18:01,430 --> 00:17:58,000 composition of that drug exposes 496 00:18:01,909 --> 00:18:01,440 patients to unnecessary risks and that 497 00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:01,919 was a 498 00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:04,720 page one other big page one story and i 499 00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:05,360 i did the 500 00:18:10,789 --> 00:18:08,080 the dark side of viagra i've done a 501 00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:10,799 doctor who faked his work on kidney 502 00:18:15,669 --> 00:18:14,080 uh stuff i've done vioxx the the whole 503 00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:15,679 scandal over vioxx 504 00:18:19,270 --> 00:18:17,039 yeah i mean i've done a whole string 505 00:18:20,950 --> 00:18:19,280 over the years and i found it obviously 506 00:18:22,549 --> 00:18:20,960 and i wanted when i got involved in the 507 00:18:22,870 --> 00:18:22,559 whole wakefield and what i wanted to do 508 00:18:25,350 --> 00:18:22,880 was 509 00:18:26,710 --> 00:18:25,360 an investigation of statins because i 510 00:18:29,029 --> 00:18:26,720 still believe that it's something that 511 00:18:30,950 --> 00:18:29,039 really needs to be looked into which is 512 00:18:32,789 --> 00:18:30,960 that jugger the anti-cholesterol class 513 00:18:34,390 --> 00:18:32,799 of drugs which uh 514 00:18:35,909 --> 00:18:34,400 i think a lot of questions need 515 00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:35,919 answering about that i i 516 00:18:40,150 --> 00:18:38,080 really found interesting doing 517 00:18:42,150 --> 00:18:40,160 investigations into drug companies 518 00:18:44,150 --> 00:18:42,160 so yeah i mean i was the last person a 519 00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:44,160 last person that wakefield 520 00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:47,440 would want to come on his tail because 521 00:18:50,470 --> 00:18:48,960 the idea that i'm working for the 522 00:18:51,590 --> 00:18:50,480 pharmaceutical industry is just 523 00:18:54,470 --> 00:18:51,600 laughable i mean i 524 00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:54,480 i even chased a pharmaceutical executive 525 00:18:57,430 --> 00:18:54,960 with a 526 00:18:59,190 --> 00:18:57,440 film crew in the same way as i chased 527 00:19:00,549 --> 00:18:59,200 wakefield with a film crew 528 00:19:02,549 --> 00:19:00,559 and i can tell you that any 529 00:19:03,990 --> 00:19:02,559 pharmaceutical company or anyone working 530 00:19:06,230 --> 00:19:04,000 in that industry who thought they could 531 00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:06,240 get me on board with some kind of 532 00:19:10,310 --> 00:19:08,640 some kind of collaborative venture or 533 00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:10,320 offer me some sort of financial 534 00:19:14,630 --> 00:19:12,320 inducement to do their will 535 00:19:16,549 --> 00:19:14,640 would just assume i had a hidden camera 536 00:19:18,230 --> 00:19:16,559 you know i and i would because it'd be a 537 00:19:19,029 --> 00:19:18,240 bigger story than the story they'd be 538 00:19:21,029 --> 00:19:19,039 offering me 539 00:19:22,710 --> 00:19:21,039 i mean yes please if any there's any 540 00:19:24,070 --> 00:19:22,720 farmer executives out there who want to 541 00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:24,080 make improper suggestions 542 00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:26,240 to a journalist and involve them in some 543 00:19:29,909 --> 00:19:28,400 sort of collaboration to do down andrew 544 00:19:31,510 --> 00:19:29,919 wait for anybody else 545 00:19:34,390 --> 00:19:31,520 they can contact me and i'll be most 546 00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:34,400 glad to have a confidential let's secret 547 00:19:36,950 --> 00:19:36,240 conversation with them about how we can 548 00:19:42,150 --> 00:19:36,960 plot that 549 00:19:43,909 --> 00:19:42,160 uh that piece of journalism for contact 550 00:19:45,750 --> 00:19:43,919 and just in case let me just say this 551 00:19:46,630 --> 00:19:45,760 because what what wakefield's people 552 00:19:48,390 --> 00:19:46,640 would do 553 00:19:50,150 --> 00:19:48,400 would be to take something where i would 554 00:19:52,710 --> 00:19:50,160 say what i just said to you 555 00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:52,720 and then publish it as if i was saying 556 00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:54,080 that as a confession 557 00:19:57,430 --> 00:19:56,720 and so i have to now say if you're 558 00:19:59,190 --> 00:19:57,440 working 559 00:20:01,110 --> 00:19:59,200 with the anti-vaccine groups and you 560 00:20:01,750 --> 00:20:01,120 want to take that as a confession from 561 00:20:04,230 --> 00:20:01,760 me 562 00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:04,240 then you know you've got worse in your 563 00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:05,600 head than sometimes 564 00:20:10,870 --> 00:20:08,880 i uh uncharitably and with with a i 565 00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:10,880 i think an unfortunate loss of 566 00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:12,400 compassion sometimes 567 00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:15,440 um i think you need your head seeing too 568 00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:18,240 yeah yeah yeah so yeah exactly the 569 00:20:24,230 --> 00:20:20,640 upshot of that is that you are no 570 00:20:26,310 --> 00:20:24,240 big farmer shill and uh and so to 571 00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:26,320 suggest that i've never even owned a car 572 00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:28,320 i can drive a car and i've rented cars 573 00:20:32,549 --> 00:20:30,559 i've never even owned a car imagine a 574 00:20:36,149 --> 00:20:32,559 farmership and i live 575 00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:36,159 i live in a one-bedroom flat right 576 00:20:39,669 --> 00:20:38,640 so okay mr farmer shell aren't i doing 577 00:20:41,909 --> 00:20:39,679 well you know 578 00:20:43,190 --> 00:20:41,919 yes that's ironic don't take the quote 579 00:20:47,029 --> 00:20:43,200 and use it 580 00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:47,039 you know because they do they do 581 00:20:52,710 --> 00:20:50,320 yeah yeah yeah most most of us 582 00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:52,720 involved with with their vaccination 583 00:20:55,190 --> 00:20:54,720 issues and the anti-vaccination movement 584 00:20:58,950 --> 00:20:55,200 are 585 00:21:07,350 --> 00:20:58,960 cherry-pick and take things 586 00:21:10,950 --> 00:21:09,430 that was part two of my interview with 587 00:21:14,310 --> 00:21:10,960 brian dear 588 00:21:14,870 --> 00:21:14,320 next week in part three brian talks 589 00:21:17,110 --> 00:21:14,880 about the 590 00:21:18,870 --> 00:21:17,120 impact of wakefield's work on 591 00:21:20,950 --> 00:21:18,880 vaccination rates 592 00:21:22,710 --> 00:21:20,960 the other authors involved in the 593 00:21:27,110 --> 00:21:22,720 original paper 594 00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:27,120 and the link to supermodel l macpherson 595 00:21:30,310 --> 00:21:29,440 you can find a link to brian's book in 596 00:22:05,740 --> 00:21:30,320 this week's 597 00:22:55,510 --> 00:22:12,640 [Music] 598 00:23:06,830 --> 00:22:55,520 so 599 00:23:08,149 --> 00:23:06,840 [Music] 600 00:23:09,990 --> 00:23:08,159 so 601 00:23:11,909 --> 00:23:10,000 now let's take a look at the latest 602 00:23:14,789 --> 00:23:11,919 newsletter from the australian skeptics 603 00:23:18,390 --> 00:23:14,799 newsletter number 108 604 00:23:20,630 --> 00:23:18,400 and this arrived in my inbox on the 6th 605 00:23:24,070 --> 00:23:20,640 of october 606 00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:24,080 and it says hi all president trump newly 607 00:23:28,310 --> 00:23:25,760 returned to the white house declares 608 00:23:30,390 --> 00:23:28,320 don't be afraid of covert don't let it 609 00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:30,400 dominate your life i feel better than i 610 00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:32,640 did 20 years ago 611 00:23:37,110 --> 00:23:34,559 you can bet that will encourage the 612 00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:37,120 sovereign citizens slash anti-covert 613 00:23:39,830 --> 00:23:37,600 slash 614 00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:39,840 bunning harassers to be out in force 615 00:23:44,470 --> 00:23:41,360 around the world 616 00:23:47,830 --> 00:23:44,480 just thank your lucky stars that 617 00:23:49,669 --> 00:23:47,840 here we have a happy newsletter 618 00:23:52,149 --> 00:23:49,679 covering anti-vaxxers conspiracy 619 00:23:55,830 --> 00:23:52,159 theorists ufo abductees 620 00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:55,840 and satanic ouija boards read on 621 00:23:59,190 --> 00:23:58,240 the newsletter starts skepticon tickets 622 00:24:00,870 --> 00:23:59,200 get them now 623 00:24:04,390 --> 00:24:00,880 only one more newsletter before 624 00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:04,400 skepticon 2020 hits the digital arena 625 00:24:08,789 --> 00:24:06,320 there's more information there but a 626 00:24:11,909 --> 00:24:08,799 good and timely reminder that the 627 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:11,919 convention is only a matter of a couple 628 00:24:14,070 --> 00:24:12,770 of weeks away 629 00:24:16,950 --> 00:24:14,080 [Music] 630 00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:16,960 more news research on anti-vaxxers 631 00:24:20,870 --> 00:24:18,400 vaccine refusers 632 00:24:22,470 --> 00:24:20,880 are health literate and believe they're 633 00:24:24,950 --> 00:24:22,480 pro science 634 00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:24,960 study by latrobe university researchers 635 00:24:29,430 --> 00:24:27,120 examined how members of the vaccine 636 00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:29,440 refusal movement in australia consider 637 00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:31,600 themselves to be a scientific advocacy 638 00:24:34,870 --> 00:24:32,320 group 639 00:24:36,950 --> 00:24:34,880 but the movement shows we may be placing 640 00:24:40,230 --> 00:24:36,960 too much faith in health literacy 641 00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:40,240 as a solution for health misinformation 642 00:24:44,549 --> 00:24:42,480 and don't forget that all these stories 643 00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:44,559 have links so you can read more about 644 00:24:49,669 --> 00:24:46,480 that particular issue 645 00:24:51,430 --> 00:24:49,679 no jab no pay rule has little effect on 646 00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:51,440 anti-vax appearance 647 00:24:55,190 --> 00:24:53,200 researchers from the national center for 648 00:24:56,870 --> 00:24:55,200 immunization research and surveillance 649 00:24:59,110 --> 00:24:56,880 at the university of sydney 650 00:25:00,870 --> 00:24:59,120 analyzed data from the australian 651 00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:00,880 immunization register 652 00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:03,600 the findings suggest that while monetary 653 00:25:07,350 --> 00:25:05,520 sanctions were effective in promoting 654 00:25:10,789 --> 00:25:07,360 catch-up vaccinations 655 00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:10,799 their impact varied with socio-economic 656 00:25:15,190 --> 00:25:13,360 disadvantage surprise surprise that they 657 00:25:15,909 --> 00:25:15,200 died in the wool anti-vaxxers were not 658 00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:15,919 convinced 659 00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:18,720 by the no jab no play policy and 660 00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:20,000 meanwhile 661 00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:22,559 the perth venue where arch anti-vaxxer 662 00:25:26,710 --> 00:25:24,080 judy wileyman 663 00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:26,720 was due to speak has cancelled the event 664 00:25:29,590 --> 00:25:28,720 according to the organizer this was due 665 00:25:33,269 --> 00:25:29,600 to 666 00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:33,279 pro-vax community pressure and 667 00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:36,480 censorship at work by those 668 00:25:41,750 --> 00:25:39,520 for example skeptics who regularly 669 00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:41,760 maligned wyliman for her work 670 00:25:46,950 --> 00:25:45,200 and will no doubt continue to do so 671 00:25:49,430 --> 00:25:46,960 another story here alternative 672 00:25:51,510 --> 00:25:49,440 medicine's toll on cancer patients 673 00:25:53,430 --> 00:25:51,520 a study by researchers from yale 674 00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:53,440 university of medicine found that cancer 675 00:25:56,630 --> 00:25:55,200 patients who skipped or delayed 676 00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:56,640 conventional treatment to use 677 00:26:02,310 --> 00:25:58,320 alternative ones 678 00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:02,320 had as much as a 5.7 fold increased risk 679 00:26:06,230 --> 00:26:04,240 of dying within 5 years 680 00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:06,240 than those who stuck with the 681 00:26:09,750 --> 00:26:08,159 conventional medicine 682 00:26:11,909 --> 00:26:09,760 although the study was small and had 683 00:26:13,750 --> 00:26:11,919 several gaps including not knowing the 684 00:26:15,190 --> 00:26:13,760 types of alternative treatments patient 685 00:26:18,310 --> 00:26:15,200 has tried 686 00:26:19,110 --> 00:26:18,320 the researchers say they hope it spurs 687 00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:19,120 discussion 688 00:26:23,990 --> 00:26:22,000 and quote greater scrutiny of the use of 689 00:26:27,029 --> 00:26:24,000 alternative medicine for the initial 690 00:26:29,110 --> 00:26:27,039 treatment of cancer encode 691 00:26:31,350 --> 00:26:29,120 another story re-launch of the uk 692 00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:31,360 skeptic magazine the skeptic 693 00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:33,840 is the uk's longest-running publication 694 00:26:37,430 --> 00:26:35,440 offering skeptical analysis of 695 00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:37,440 pseudoscience conspiracy theory 696 00:26:41,190 --> 00:26:40,080 and claims of the paranormal founded in 697 00:26:44,070 --> 00:26:41,200 1987 698 00:26:44,710 --> 00:26:44,080 it went online only for a while and then 699 00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:44,720 went into 700 00:26:51,430 --> 00:26:48,799 hiatus for a few years founded in 1987 701 00:26:53,909 --> 00:26:51,440 it went online only for a while and then 702 00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:53,919 went into hiatus a few years ago 703 00:26:58,310 --> 00:26:56,880 but it has been given a new kiss of life 704 00:27:00,789 --> 00:26:58,320 as an online publication 705 00:27:01,590 --> 00:27:00,799 under the auspices of editor michael 706 00:27:03,590 --> 00:27:01,600 marshall 707 00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:03,600 project director of the good thinking 708 00:27:08,070 --> 00:27:05,039 society along with 709 00:27:09,590 --> 00:27:08,080 an editorial team from the merseyside 710 00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:09,600 skeptic society 711 00:27:13,669 --> 00:27:12,000 the skeptic is supported by the good 712 00:27:15,830 --> 00:27:13,679 thinking society 713 00:27:18,549 --> 00:27:15,840 apart from the fact they borrowed our 714 00:27:21,110 --> 00:27:18,559 name there is no relation to our local 715 00:27:21,750 --> 00:27:21,120 skeptic magazine or the other one from 716 00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:21,760 the us 717 00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:24,000 or dozens of other mags across the world 718 00:27:28,710 --> 00:27:25,600 with similar titles 719 00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:28,720 in the vulgate and a note here says that 720 00:27:32,230 --> 00:27:30,480 marshall and fellow skeptic with the k 721 00:27:35,430 --> 00:27:32,240 presenter alice howeth 722 00:27:37,750 --> 00:27:35,440 are featured speakers at skepticon 2020. 723 00:27:40,630 --> 00:27:37,760 here's an interesting one australian ufo 724 00:27:42,870 --> 00:27:40,640 abduction story still stirs passion 725 00:27:45,350 --> 00:27:42,880 interesting story especially about the 726 00:27:47,510 --> 00:27:45,360 demarcation disputes and one-upmanship 727 00:27:49,909 --> 00:27:47,520 between ufo investigation groups 728 00:27:50,950 --> 00:27:49,919 that still wrinkles almost 30 years 729 00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:50,960 later 730 00:27:55,430 --> 00:27:53,760 also there are details about the current 731 00:27:57,190 --> 00:27:55,440 issue of our magazine 732 00:27:59,029 --> 00:27:57,200 the skeptic magazine from australian 733 00:28:00,870 --> 00:27:59,039 skeptics the skeptic 734 00:28:02,549 --> 00:28:00,880 including a link to a sample article 735 00:28:04,950 --> 00:28:02,559 from the issue itself 736 00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:04,960 as a pdf and don't forget listeners 737 00:28:07,669 --> 00:28:06,799 especially in australia if you feel you 738 00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:07,679 can 739 00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:10,080 contribute an article a story something 740 00:28:14,470 --> 00:28:11,760 like that to the 741 00:28:15,430 --> 00:28:14,480 magazine the skeptic magazine feel free 742 00:28:19,710 --> 00:28:15,440 to contact 743 00:28:22,470 --> 00:28:19,720 uh editor tim mendem editor at 744 00:28:25,510 --> 00:28:22,480 skeptics.com and maybe provide a 745 00:28:25,750 --> 00:28:25,520 an idea or an outline events coming up 746 00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:25,760 on 747 00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:28,960 october the 19th vic skeptics cafe 748 00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:32,240 dr mark newbrook over in perth on the 749 00:28:35,510 --> 00:28:34,640 21st of october perth skeptics in the 750 00:28:37,350 --> 00:28:35,520 pub 751 00:28:40,149 --> 00:28:37,360 here in sydney on the 5th of november we 752 00:28:41,669 --> 00:28:40,159 have sydney skeptics in the pub online 753 00:28:43,669 --> 00:28:41,679 and there are also links to canberra 754 00:28:44,789 --> 00:28:43,679 skeptics gold coast skeptics queensland 755 00:28:47,029 --> 00:28:44,799 skeptics 756 00:28:48,870 --> 00:28:47,039 and thinking and drinking adelaide 757 00:28:51,190 --> 00:28:48,880 skeptics in the pub 758 00:28:52,870 --> 00:28:51,200 and the newsletter rounds off with some 759 00:28:54,789 --> 00:28:52,880 items of interest 760 00:28:56,549 --> 00:28:54,799 travel tip number one most haunted 761 00:28:59,620 --> 00:28:56,559 cities in america 762 00:29:00,870 --> 00:28:59,630 and at least some noted haunted spots 763 00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:00,880 [Music] 764 00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:02,880 travel tip number two most haunted 765 00:29:07,269 --> 00:29:05,600 places in singapore 766 00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:07,279 probably not the country that would be 767 00:29:11,029 --> 00:29:08,880 on the top of your list of must-see 768 00:29:12,789 --> 00:29:11,039 ghost cities 769 00:29:15,269 --> 00:29:12,799 it's only a small place so there weren't 770 00:29:17,909 --> 00:29:15,279 too many hornet spots to choose from 771 00:29:19,110 --> 00:29:17,919 let me see new york's most sought after 772 00:29:21,029 --> 00:29:19,120 ghosts 773 00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:21,039 one of the other stories here ghost 774 00:29:25,909 --> 00:29:22,640 hunter horrified 775 00:29:27,909 --> 00:29:25,919 at ouija boards on sale and we only 776 00:29:29,669 --> 00:29:27,919 spoke about ouija boards a week or two 777 00:29:32,549 --> 00:29:29,679 back on the skeptic zone 778 00:29:35,190 --> 00:29:32,559 paul masters who is a member of the true 779 00:29:38,389 --> 00:29:35,200 paranormal events uk 780 00:29:40,310 --> 00:29:38,399 says that he was gobsmacked after seeing 781 00:29:43,430 --> 00:29:40,320 the spirit board for sale 782 00:29:46,389 --> 00:29:43,440 in a budget store for one pound 783 00:29:47,269 --> 00:29:46,399 he says that deadly demons could be 784 00:29:50,310 --> 00:29:47,279 released 785 00:29:53,510 --> 00:29:50,320 by the boards if they are in their hands 786 00:29:56,470 --> 00:29:53,520 of anyone but mediums and the potential 787 00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:56,480 for sinister spirit activity is 788 00:30:00,950 --> 00:29:59,760 heightened around halloween we'd be cobb 789 00:30:03,669 --> 00:30:00,960 smack too 790 00:30:05,669 --> 00:30:03,679 one pound seems awfully cheap anyway 791 00:30:06,310 --> 00:30:05,679 apparently a few days later a spokesman 792 00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:06,320 for the shop 793 00:30:10,149 --> 00:30:08,399 that was selling them said that the 794 00:30:15,909 --> 00:30:10,159 spirit boards had 795 00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:17,510 and there are more stories in the 796 00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:19,440 newsletter for you to read and enjoy 797 00:30:23,430 --> 00:30:21,120 compiled by tim mendem 798 00:30:24,389 --> 00:30:23,440 if you wish to have a look at that for 799 00:30:25,830 --> 00:30:24,399 yourself 800 00:30:29,549 --> 00:30:25,840 if you wish to get the newsletter 801 00:30:30,950 --> 00:30:29,559 delivered to your inbox simply go to 802 00:30:39,620 --> 00:30:30,960 www.skeptics.com.edu 803 00:31:30,830 --> 00:30:59,240 [Music] 804 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:44,640 foreign 805 00:31:44,650 --> 00:31:47,990 [Music] 806 00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:51,450 and now a reading from the book of tim 807 00:32:01,590 --> 00:31:54,240 [Music] 808 00:32:04,070 --> 00:32:01,600 with tim mendom 809 00:32:05,509 --> 00:32:04,080 hi my name is tim mendem i'm the 810 00:32:06,630 --> 00:32:05,519 executive officer for australian 811 00:32:08,789 --> 00:32:06,640 skeptics inc 812 00:32:10,470 --> 00:32:08,799 and editor of our wonderful magazine the 813 00:32:11,669 --> 00:32:10,480 skeptic 814 00:32:14,310 --> 00:32:11,679 and today i'll be reading from the 815 00:32:17,669 --> 00:32:14,320 skeptic december 2015 816 00:32:19,590 --> 00:32:17,679 which is volume 35 number four 817 00:32:21,029 --> 00:32:19,600 i'm taking this from a regular column 818 00:32:23,029 --> 00:32:21,039 called them 819 00:32:25,110 --> 00:32:23,039 which looks at publications magazines 820 00:32:27,590 --> 00:32:25,120 websites a lot of which are 821 00:32:28,149 --> 00:32:27,600 really sort of out there it's a bit of a 822 00:32:30,710 --> 00:32:28,159 review 823 00:32:33,430 --> 00:32:30,720 page looking at these things and some of 824 00:32:36,149 --> 00:32:33,440 the things are very strange 825 00:32:37,830 --> 00:32:36,159 and as always in the paranormal world 826 00:32:38,710 --> 00:32:37,840 there have always been some claims and 827 00:32:41,830 --> 00:32:38,720 claimants 828 00:32:44,870 --> 00:32:41,840 that have been i should put it 829 00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:44,880 weird we're not talking unsubstantiated 830 00:32:47,669 --> 00:32:47,120 here like homeopathy or dubious such as 831 00:32:48,870 --> 00:32:47,679 nessie 832 00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:48,880 now we're talking about those 833 00:32:53,669 --> 00:32:51,200 organizations that are so far out there 834 00:32:55,029 --> 00:32:53,679 that they're fun and you wonder if those 835 00:32:57,990 --> 00:32:55,039 who run the organizations 836 00:33:00,230 --> 00:32:58,000 are equally having fun are they joking 837 00:33:03,509 --> 00:33:00,240 or are they serious 838 00:33:05,269 --> 00:33:03,519 so it is with the flat earthers first of 839 00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:05,279 all we have to say that they exist 840 00:33:08,389 --> 00:33:07,840 and they walk among us we know we have 841 00:33:10,870 --> 00:33:08,399 the proof 842 00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:10,880 they have websites i should add that 843 00:33:13,029 --> 00:33:12,240 this column was written well before the 844 00:33:15,710 --> 00:33:13,039 current 845 00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:15,720 resurgence of flat earthers 846 00:33:24,149 --> 00:33:22,640 [Music] 847 00:33:28,190 --> 00:33:24,159 prime amongst the flat earth of course 848 00:33:32,389 --> 00:33:30,470 www.theflateearthsociety.org 849 00:33:34,310 --> 00:33:32,399 this group has had this mission to 850 00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:34,320 promote and initiate discussion 851 00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:36,880 of flat earth theory as well as archive 852 00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:38,480 flat earth literature 853 00:33:43,110 --> 00:33:40,720 our forums act as a venue to encourage 854 00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:43,120 free thinking and debate 855 00:33:48,149 --> 00:33:46,000 the site readily points out in its faqs 856 00:33:50,070 --> 00:33:48,159 that this site is not a joke 857 00:33:51,669 --> 00:33:50,080 we are actively promoting the flat earth 858 00:33:54,149 --> 00:33:51,679 movement worldwide 859 00:33:55,509 --> 00:33:54,159 there are admittedly several non-serious 860 00:33:58,710 --> 00:33:55,519 flat earth posters 861 00:33:59,830 --> 00:33:58,720 but they are fairly easy to identify as 862 00:34:01,750 --> 00:33:59,840 nicely elaborated 863 00:34:03,509 --> 00:34:01,760 in the history section of the site the 864 00:34:05,110 --> 00:34:03,519 flat earth society dates back to the 865 00:34:07,190 --> 00:34:05,120 early 1800s 866 00:34:08,230 --> 00:34:07,200 when it was founded by samuel burleigh 867 00:34:12,629 --> 00:34:08,240 robotham 868 00:34:14,550 --> 00:34:12,639 earth views were based largely 869 00:34:16,069 --> 00:34:14,560 on literal interpretation of bible 870 00:34:19,349 --> 00:34:16,079 passages 871 00:34:21,510 --> 00:34:19,359 his system called zetetic astronomy held 872 00:34:23,510 --> 00:34:21,520 out the earth is a flat disc 873 00:34:24,629 --> 00:34:23,520 centered at the north pole and bounded 874 00:34:27,829 --> 00:34:24,639 along its southern 875 00:34:30,069 --> 00:34:27,839 edge by a wall of ice with the sun 876 00:34:31,750 --> 00:34:30,079 moon planets and stars only a few 877 00:34:33,030 --> 00:34:31,760 hundred miles above the surface of the 878 00:34:36,149 --> 00:34:33,040 earth 879 00:34:38,069 --> 00:34:36,159 after robotham's death in 1884 followers 880 00:34:41,829 --> 00:34:38,079 of his satanic astronomy 881 00:34:43,829 --> 00:34:41,839 founded the universal zetetic society 882 00:34:46,230 --> 00:34:43,839 not to be confused with the skeptical 883 00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:46,240 inquiry's earliest incarnations 884 00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:49,280 which was called the zetetic the flat 885 00:34:52,710 --> 00:34:51,200 earth theory developed further in the us 886 00:34:55,589 --> 00:34:52,720 but it gradually faded 887 00:34:56,629 --> 00:34:55,599 in popular interest however salvation 888 00:34:59,109 --> 00:34:56,639 was on the way 889 00:35:00,470 --> 00:34:59,119 by samuel shenton a fellow of the royal 890 00:35:02,950 --> 00:35:00,480 astronomical society 891 00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:02,960 and the royal geographic society who 892 00:35:05,510 --> 00:35:04,560 founded the international flat earth 893 00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:05,520 society 894 00:35:09,270 --> 00:35:08,640 in 1956 it's also referred to as the 895 00:35:12,390 --> 00:35:09,280 international 896 00:35:13,829 --> 00:35:12,400 flat earth research society shenton died 897 00:35:16,550 --> 00:35:13,839 in 1971 898 00:35:18,310 --> 00:35:16,560 and his successor charles johnson quote 899 00:35:21,510 --> 00:35:18,320 actively and charismatically 900 00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:21,520 promoted the society its membership 901 00:35:26,390 --> 00:35:23,760 increased to over three thousand 902 00:35:27,829 --> 00:35:26,400 unfortunately in 1995 johnson's home was 903 00:35:29,990 --> 00:35:27,839 destroyed in a fire 904 00:35:32,550 --> 00:35:30,000 along with all of the society's library 905 00:35:35,430 --> 00:35:32,560 archives and membership lists 906 00:35:37,349 --> 00:35:35,440 he vowed to rebuild this society but he 907 00:35:40,390 --> 00:35:37,359 died in 2001 908 00:35:42,630 --> 00:35:40,400 leaving the society's future uncertain 909 00:35:45,109 --> 00:35:42,640 but do not fear the society was 910 00:35:46,310 --> 00:35:45,119 resurrected in 2004 and remains active 911 00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:46,320 today 912 00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:49,680 in 2009 it officially reopened to new 913 00:35:53,030 --> 00:35:51,599 members 914 00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:53,040 the website and don't forget this is 915 00:35:56,230 --> 00:35:54,320 from a column which is devoted to 916 00:35:57,750 --> 00:35:56,240 reviewing websites 917 00:35:59,349 --> 00:35:57,760 the website is professionally designed 918 00:36:01,109 --> 00:35:59,359 with a great gallery of maps 919 00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:01,119 illustrations and an extensive 920 00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:03,520 collection of shenton's lecture posters 921 00:36:08,069 --> 00:36:06,640 i must read if only for cultural reasons 922 00:36:10,310 --> 00:36:08,079 as well as copies of pamphlets and 923 00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:10,320 articles and a wiki with lots of links 924 00:36:14,950 --> 00:36:12,000 to articles and videos that promote the 925 00:36:17,430 --> 00:36:14,960 society's views 926 00:36:19,750 --> 00:36:17,440 sadly the society's last newsletter 927 00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:19,760 seems to have been in 1994 928 00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:21,440 though it did feature the headline 929 00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:24,560 australia not down under 930 00:36:28,950 --> 00:36:26,800 it's well worth a read the site at least 931 00:36:30,180 --> 00:36:28,960 until the sun rises over the wall of ice 932 00:36:35,910 --> 00:36:30,190 at the edge of the earth 933 00:36:37,870 --> 00:36:35,920 [Music] 934 00:36:39,349 --> 00:36:37,880 and that's from the skeptic december 935 00:36:41,910 --> 00:36:39,359 2015 936 00:36:42,950 --> 00:36:41,920 the regular column called them and you 937 00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:42,960 can read 938 00:36:48,430 --> 00:36:45,920 this issue and others in fact 39 years 939 00:36:51,430 --> 00:36:48,440 worth of the skeptic from our website 940 00:36:53,349 --> 00:36:51,440 skeptics.com.eu you'll enjoy it i'm sure 941 00:36:58,100 --> 00:36:53,359 and then you'll rush off to subscribe to 942 00:37:48,829 --> 00:37:28,530 [Music] 943 00:37:48,839 --> 00:37:52,820 ciao 944 00:37:52,830 --> 00:38:05,829 [Music] 945 00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:07,510 now once again it's time to look into 946 00:38:10,630 --> 00:38:09,440 the pages of australia's periodicals 947 00:38:13,750 --> 00:38:10,640 journals magazines 948 00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:13,760 gazettes gazettes they still make 949 00:38:18,230 --> 00:38:14,880 gazettes 950 00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:18,240 dating back to the uh i think almost to 951 00:38:23,390 --> 00:38:19,920 the 1700s 952 00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:23,400 certainly to the 1800s at trove 953 00:38:28,630 --> 00:38:25,440 trove.nla.gov 954 00:38:30,230 --> 00:38:28,640 national library of australia and 955 00:38:31,990 --> 00:38:30,240 in past weeks we've been looking for 956 00:38:34,870 --> 00:38:32,000 yowies and 957 00:38:35,589 --> 00:38:34,880 ghosts and ouija boards and things like 958 00:38:37,510 --> 00:38:35,599 that 959 00:38:40,930 --> 00:38:37,520 and this week i thought i'd look up the 960 00:38:43,109 --> 00:38:40,940 term quackery 961 00:38:45,750 --> 00:38:43,119 [Music] 962 00:38:46,390 --> 00:38:45,760 and as you can imagine that returns many 963 00:38:49,990 --> 00:38:46,400 results 964 00:38:52,550 --> 00:38:50,000 over the decades and decades 965 00:38:54,410 --> 00:38:52,560 and there are so many pages but let's 966 00:38:59,030 --> 00:38:54,420 just take a few at random here 967 00:39:03,550 --> 00:38:59,040 [Music] 968 00:39:06,230 --> 00:39:03,560 all right so we land in the year 969 00:39:10,150 --> 00:39:06,240 1916 the mercury 970 00:39:11,510 --> 00:39:10,160 hobart in tasmania and on wednesday the 971 00:39:13,750 --> 00:39:11,520 12th of april 972 00:39:15,270 --> 00:39:13,760 of that year 1916 we read in what 973 00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:15,280 appears to be 974 00:39:21,109 --> 00:39:19,200 the letters column quackery i wonder 975 00:39:23,750 --> 00:39:21,119 how much longer the public are going to 976 00:39:26,630 --> 00:39:23,760 tolerate fortune teller quacks 977 00:39:27,670 --> 00:39:26,640 and metaphysical cure roles practicing 978 00:39:29,829 --> 00:39:27,680 in our midst 979 00:39:30,950 --> 00:39:29,839 there is one lady who calls herself a 980 00:39:34,470 --> 00:39:30,960 metaphysician 981 00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:34,480 who makes quite large sums at the game 982 00:39:39,190 --> 00:39:37,680 she says she makes no charge but i know 983 00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:39,200 for a fact she does 984 00:39:42,870 --> 00:39:41,760 and the poor individuals who go to her 985 00:39:46,069 --> 00:39:42,880 generally become 986 00:39:47,430 --> 00:39:46,079 such metaphysical wrecks that they 987 00:39:50,310 --> 00:39:47,440 sometimes end up by 988 00:39:51,589 --> 00:39:50,320 dying or having to go to a doctor only 989 00:39:54,069 --> 00:39:51,599 to find out 990 00:39:55,430 --> 00:39:54,079 when it is too late that they were 991 00:39:58,150 --> 00:39:55,440 incurable 992 00:39:59,510 --> 00:39:58,160 if a bookmaker is caught betting it is 993 00:40:02,790 --> 00:39:59,520 called illegal 994 00:40:05,270 --> 00:40:02,800 and he is promptly head up and find 995 00:40:06,230 --> 00:40:05,280 heavily but these quack hum bugs can go 996 00:40:09,349 --> 00:40:06,240 on forever 997 00:40:11,430 --> 00:40:09,359 it seems and no notice taken of them 998 00:40:12,630 --> 00:40:11,440 they are not allowed to practice in 999 00:40:15,910 --> 00:40:12,640 other states 1000 00:40:19,510 --> 00:40:15,920 so why should they be allowed here 1001 00:40:20,790 --> 00:40:19,520 signed anti-quack it's amazing how 1002 00:40:24,870 --> 00:40:20,800 little has changed 1003 00:40:27,829 --> 00:40:24,880 since the year 1916. now the next place 1004 00:40:31,829 --> 00:40:27,839 our search brings us to or the next year 1005 00:40:35,589 --> 00:40:31,839 is 1934 the advertiser 1006 00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:35,599 in adelaide on monday the 9th of april 1007 00:40:39,670 --> 00:40:38,400 dealing with quackery by a medical 1008 00:40:42,870 --> 00:40:39,680 correspondent 1009 00:40:44,790 --> 00:40:42,880 the question of the quack is common to 1010 00:40:46,550 --> 00:40:44,800 all countries and recently it was 1011 00:40:47,349 --> 00:40:46,560 discussed at the royal society of 1012 00:40:49,589 --> 00:40:47,359 medicine 1013 00:40:50,390 --> 00:40:49,599 by a distinguished gathering which 1014 00:40:52,470 --> 00:40:50,400 included the 1015 00:40:53,589 --> 00:40:52,480 secretary of the international medical 1016 00:40:55,910 --> 00:40:53,599 congress 1017 00:40:57,430 --> 00:40:55,920 various suggestions to deal with the 1018 00:40:59,510 --> 00:40:57,440 problem were discussed 1019 00:41:01,109 --> 00:40:59,520 not the least interesting being that of 1020 00:41:03,510 --> 00:41:01,119 the well-known doctor 1021 00:41:05,750 --> 00:41:03,520 who said that no attempt should be made 1022 00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:05,760 on the part of the qualified profession 1023 00:41:11,030 --> 00:41:09,040 to put down the quack by law for he 1024 00:41:12,950 --> 00:41:11,040 believed that it was better that people 1025 00:41:16,550 --> 00:41:12,960 should be allowed to 1026 00:41:19,109 --> 00:41:16,560 act foolishly then driven to act wisely 1027 00:41:19,829 --> 00:41:19,119 moreover he added any attempt to put 1028 00:41:21,910 --> 00:41:19,839 down 1029 00:41:23,589 --> 00:41:21,920 unqualified practice on the part of the 1030 00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:23,599 profession is at once 1031 00:41:27,270 --> 00:41:26,160 ascribed to a desire to force people 1032 00:41:29,990 --> 00:41:27,280 into its own 1033 00:41:31,270 --> 00:41:30,000 consulting rooms what was urgently 1034 00:41:33,190 --> 00:41:31,280 needed he added 1035 00:41:35,829 --> 00:41:33,200 was that citizens should have no 1036 00:41:37,750 --> 00:41:35,839 possibility of mistaking those who had 1037 00:41:39,750 --> 00:41:37,760 not been medically trained 1038 00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:39,760 from those who had after that 1039 00:41:44,470 --> 00:41:41,920 distinction was clearly established 1040 00:41:46,309 --> 00:41:44,480 then people having their eyes opened 1041 00:41:47,109 --> 00:41:46,319 should be allowed to choose between the 1042 00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:47,119 two 1043 00:41:51,430 --> 00:41:49,440 the international secretary said that 1044 00:41:54,470 --> 00:41:51,440 though the present generation was more 1045 00:41:55,030 --> 00:41:54,480 learned than its predecessor it was not 1046 00:41:57,829 --> 00:41:55,040 more 1047 00:41:58,950 --> 00:41:57,839 sensible and superstition was deeply 1048 00:42:02,230 --> 00:41:58,960 ingrained 1049 00:42:04,390 --> 00:42:02,240 even women of standing in culture 1050 00:42:06,069 --> 00:42:04,400 believed in the healing properties of an 1051 00:42:09,109 --> 00:42:06,079 east indian amulet 1052 00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:09,119 as a cure for rheumatism an east 1053 00:42:14,230 --> 00:42:11,760 indian amulet that's interesting now 1054 00:42:15,030 --> 00:42:14,240 let's set our time machine dials to the 1055 00:42:18,470 --> 00:42:15,040 year 1056 00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:18,480 1890 the australian star 1057 00:42:22,150 --> 00:42:20,560 which apparently was a newspaper here in 1058 00:42:26,150 --> 00:42:22,160 sydney australia 1059 00:42:30,069 --> 00:42:26,160 and a report from the 28th 1060 00:42:32,390 --> 00:42:30,079 of august quackery in no country of the 1061 00:42:35,430 --> 00:42:32,400 world is quackery so prevalent 1062 00:42:37,349 --> 00:42:35,440 as in australia you cannot pick up a 1063 00:42:39,750 --> 00:42:37,359 single daily or periodical 1064 00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:39,760 but the first thing that strikes the 1065 00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:41,119 eyes is 1066 00:42:48,150 --> 00:42:44,560 consult free doctor this professor that 1067 00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:48,160 or hair the other did it ever strike you 1068 00:42:51,190 --> 00:42:50,720 reader that if a medical man has any 1069 00:42:54,150 --> 00:42:51,200 skill 1070 00:42:54,470 --> 00:42:54,160 whatever there is no necessity for him 1071 00:42:57,990 --> 00:42:54,480 to 1072 00:43:00,470 --> 00:42:58,000 advertise at all his pure merit alone is 1073 00:43:01,190 --> 00:43:00,480 sure to bring him more work than he can 1074 00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:01,200 do 1075 00:43:07,510 --> 00:43:04,480 is it not so when you are sick 1076 00:43:10,710 --> 00:43:07,520 you hardly know where to turn for relief 1077 00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:10,720 but we can direct you go to your nearest 1078 00:43:17,670 --> 00:43:14,400 chemist or shopkeeper and ask for 1079 00:43:18,710 --> 00:43:17,680 clement's tonic no physician can 1080 00:43:21,510 --> 00:43:18,720 prescribe you 1081 00:43:22,710 --> 00:43:21,520 half so good remedy it cannot be made in 1082 00:43:24,790 --> 00:43:22,720 small quantities 1083 00:43:26,790 --> 00:43:24,800 and when you consult a physician and 1084 00:43:28,870 --> 00:43:26,800 take his prescription 1085 00:43:31,829 --> 00:43:28,880 to your chemist you have to take your 1086 00:43:35,349 --> 00:43:31,839 chance of getting fresh or stale drugs 1087 00:43:39,750 --> 00:43:35,359 as it happens whatever may be in stock 1088 00:43:42,230 --> 00:43:39,760 at the time whereas in clement's tonic 1089 00:43:43,510 --> 00:43:42,240 you get material which is especially 1090 00:43:46,630 --> 00:43:43,520 prepared 1091 00:43:48,309 --> 00:43:46,640 for its manufacture as to the worth of 1092 00:43:50,790 --> 00:43:48,319 clement's tonic 1093 00:43:51,430 --> 00:43:50,800 no medicine in the world ever did half 1094 00:43:54,150 --> 00:43:51,440 the good 1095 00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:54,160 in double the time no physician 1096 00:44:00,069 --> 00:43:56,720 qualified or unqualified can prescribe 1097 00:44:03,030 --> 00:44:00,079 half so good a remedy clement's tonic is 1098 00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:03,040 praised and eulogized by all who take it 1099 00:44:06,069 --> 00:44:05,200 and we are receiving letters like the 1100 00:44:09,670 --> 00:44:06,079 following 1101 00:44:13,109 --> 00:44:09,680 every day 52 gallery street newtown 1102 00:44:15,270 --> 00:44:13,119 dear sir i feel it my duty to inform you 1103 00:44:16,390 --> 00:44:15,280 that i have been a great sufferer from 1104 00:44:19,270 --> 00:44:16,400 neuralgia 1105 00:44:20,470 --> 00:44:19,280 and loss of appetite i tried lots of 1106 00:44:23,190 --> 00:44:20,480 different things 1107 00:44:24,069 --> 00:44:23,200 but they proved no good i was 1108 00:44:27,030 --> 00:44:24,079 recommended 1109 00:44:27,510 --> 00:44:27,040 clements tonic i feel better after 1110 00:44:30,630 --> 00:44:27,520 taking 1111 00:44:31,750 --> 00:44:30,640 three doses and after three days i was 1112 00:44:35,270 --> 00:44:31,760 quite recovered 1113 00:44:38,790 --> 00:44:35,280 free from all pain and appetite returned 1114 00:44:41,910 --> 00:44:38,800 and i feel it my duty to publish this 1115 00:44:45,670 --> 00:44:41,920 so that all may derive the same benefit 1116 00:44:49,349 --> 00:44:45,680 as i have yours faithfully a 1117 00:44:50,230 --> 00:44:49,359 kitchen we can produce scores of similar 1118 00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:50,240 letters 1119 00:44:54,390 --> 00:44:51,920 and our sole object in bringing our 1120 00:44:57,910 --> 00:44:54,400 remedy forward is for your benefit 1121 00:45:00,069 --> 00:44:57,920 and to keep the unwary out of the hands 1122 00:45:03,589 --> 00:45:00,079 of advertising quacks 1123 00:45:05,270 --> 00:45:03,599 who only want their money any further 1124 00:45:10,470 --> 00:45:05,280 particulars on application 1125 00:45:12,470 --> 00:45:10,480 to fm clements newtown new south wales 1126 00:45:13,750 --> 00:45:12,480 now it's interesting that a search for 1127 00:45:19,109 --> 00:45:13,760 the words 1128 00:45:23,030 --> 00:45:19,119 clemens tonic returns something called 1129 00:45:25,750 --> 00:45:23,040 clemens tonic liquid 500 milliliters 1130 00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:25,760 the recovery tonic for athletes after 1131 00:45:30,390 --> 00:45:26,400 illness 1132 00:45:32,150 --> 00:45:30,400 and the 50 plus and it contains lots of 1133 00:45:33,829 --> 00:45:32,160 different herbs and vitamins and things 1134 00:45:36,150 --> 00:45:33,839 like that i wonder 1135 00:45:38,950 --> 00:45:36,160 if it's the same thing or a variation or 1136 00:45:41,670 --> 00:45:38,960 just something of a similar name 1137 00:45:43,390 --> 00:45:41,680 now the next search comes up from the 1138 00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:43,400 year 1139 00:45:49,670 --> 00:45:47,040 1891 thursday the 17th of september 1140 00:45:50,790 --> 00:45:49,680 the newspaper is the mercury and weekly 1141 00:45:54,630 --> 00:45:50,800 courier 1142 00:45:58,470 --> 00:45:54,640 from the state of victoria and this is 1143 00:46:00,630 --> 00:45:58,480 very hard to read due to the age of the 1144 00:46:03,910 --> 00:46:00,640 original newspaper and the scan 1145 00:46:07,430 --> 00:46:03,920 but i'll do my best let's see 1146 00:46:08,550 --> 00:46:07,440 quackery the world is full of quacks and 1147 00:46:10,870 --> 00:46:08,560 quackery 1148 00:46:13,349 --> 00:46:10,880 amongst them all quack medicines and 1149 00:46:16,150 --> 00:46:13,359 remedies of different kinds occupy 1150 00:46:17,109 --> 00:46:16,160 a prominent place we honestly believe 1151 00:46:19,829 --> 00:46:17,119 that if 1152 00:46:21,750 --> 00:46:19,839 cold water pure and simple were to be 1153 00:46:23,430 --> 00:46:21,760 bottled and well advertised 1154 00:46:26,230 --> 00:46:23,440 that it could be sold in great 1155 00:46:28,230 --> 00:46:26,240 quantities at quite a profit 1156 00:46:30,150 --> 00:46:28,240 and testimonials in great numbers would 1157 00:46:32,870 --> 00:46:30,160 roll in declaring 1158 00:46:36,150 --> 00:46:32,880 said medicine had snatched some poor 1159 00:46:39,030 --> 00:46:36,160 mortal from the very jaws of death 1160 00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:39,040 the world is full of cancer cures 1161 00:46:42,790 --> 00:46:40,480 consumptive cures 1162 00:46:44,470 --> 00:46:42,800 and yet it is doubtful as to whether 1163 00:46:47,109 --> 00:46:44,480 either of these diseases 1164 00:46:48,230 --> 00:46:47,119 has ever been affected in the least by 1165 00:46:51,030 --> 00:46:48,240 medicine 1166 00:46:51,990 --> 00:46:51,040 consumption will get well itself 1167 00:46:54,309 --> 00:46:52,000 sometimes 1168 00:46:55,990 --> 00:46:54,319 that is if the patient don't kill 1169 00:46:58,790 --> 00:46:56,000 himself taking medicine before 1170 00:47:00,309 --> 00:46:58,800 he has had the chance to get well and 1171 00:47:02,309 --> 00:47:00,319 indeed it is thought by 1172 00:47:03,510 --> 00:47:02,319 some that cancer will cure itself or 1173 00:47:05,829 --> 00:47:03,520 become dormant 1174 00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:05,839 and the patient may live to a good age 1175 00:47:10,390 --> 00:47:07,680 and die of something else 1176 00:47:12,790 --> 00:47:10,400 in fact we were told by one of the 1177 00:47:15,430 --> 00:47:12,800 highest medical authorities in the world 1178 00:47:18,069 --> 00:47:15,440 that this is sometimes the case we 1179 00:47:20,790 --> 00:47:18,079 imagine however that the poor sufferer 1180 00:47:22,230 --> 00:47:20,800 would not have much of a chance if we 1181 00:47:24,950 --> 00:47:22,240 were to try a remedy 1182 00:47:25,670 --> 00:47:24,960 that we saw the other day composed of 1183 00:47:28,870 --> 00:47:25,680 sulfur 1184 00:47:32,390 --> 00:47:28,880 quicksilver cream of tartare saltpeter 1185 00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:32,400 and molasses with an outward appearance 1186 00:47:38,309 --> 00:47:35,200 of british oil and red precipitate 1187 00:47:41,430 --> 00:47:38,319 imagine a man taking into his stomach 1188 00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:41,440 a dose like this would make thus 1189 00:47:46,870 --> 00:47:44,160 outraging his entire system and 1190 00:47:49,829 --> 00:47:46,880 violating not only the laws of nature 1191 00:47:52,470 --> 00:47:49,839 but the simplest laws of common sense if 1192 00:47:56,150 --> 00:47:52,480 a dose like this would not kill a man 1193 00:47:58,549 --> 00:47:56,160 it strikes us that he would give cancer 1194 00:47:59,510 --> 00:47:58,559 or any other disease a rather tough 1195 00:48:02,549 --> 00:47:59,520 tussle 1196 00:48:05,030 --> 00:48:02,559 it is our candid conviction that there 1197 00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:05,040 are but a few genuine remedies for real 1198 00:48:09,109 --> 00:48:06,400 human ills 1199 00:48:09,829 --> 00:48:09,119 and that these few remedies are to be 1200 00:48:12,230 --> 00:48:09,839 mostly 1201 00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:12,240 found in the simple things around us 1202 00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:12,880 which 1203 00:48:19,349 --> 00:48:16,240 as a rule we despise 1204 00:48:21,750 --> 00:48:19,359 you tell a man for instance that in hot 1205 00:48:23,750 --> 00:48:21,760 water he will find a remedy or relief 1206 00:48:26,470 --> 00:48:23,760 for many of the ills of life 1207 00:48:28,390 --> 00:48:26,480 and like and i'm sorry the next word is 1208 00:48:30,870 --> 00:48:28,400 too blurred to read 1209 00:48:31,990 --> 00:48:30,880 and like something he will turn from it 1210 00:48:35,829 --> 00:48:32,000 in disgust 1211 00:48:38,950 --> 00:48:35,839 the very fact that it is free to all 1212 00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:38,960 without money without price makes it 1213 00:48:42,069 --> 00:48:39,680 seem of no 1214 00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:42,079 value and people will go on dosing 1215 00:48:46,150 --> 00:48:42,960 themselves with 1216 00:48:48,470 --> 00:48:46,160 doubtful drugs well that's a very 1217 00:48:49,950 --> 00:48:48,480 odd sort of report all the way back from 1218 00:48:54,710 --> 00:48:49,960 september the 17th 1219 00:48:57,870 --> 00:48:54,720 1891 so i think we'll do one more and 1220 00:48:59,670 --> 00:48:57,880 this time we find ourselves in the year 1221 00:49:02,870 --> 00:48:59,680 1873 1222 00:49:06,349 --> 00:49:02,880 the armadale express and new england 1223 00:49:10,230 --> 00:49:06,359 general advertiser on the 1224 00:49:13,430 --> 00:49:10,240 22nd of november 1873 1225 00:49:16,470 --> 00:49:13,440 quackery as a hit at the numerous 1226 00:49:17,430 --> 00:49:16,480 quack doctors in the united states the 1227 00:49:19,510 --> 00:49:17,440 american 1228 00:49:21,750 --> 00:49:19,520 agriculturalist gives the following 1229 00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:21,760 recipe for getting rich 1230 00:49:25,349 --> 00:49:24,400 get from the medical dispensaries or 1231 00:49:28,950 --> 00:49:25,359 elsewhere 1232 00:49:31,990 --> 00:49:28,960 any simple stimulating compound or tonic 1233 00:49:34,630 --> 00:49:32,000 take a cheap whiskey and color it adding 1234 00:49:35,510 --> 00:49:34,640 any cheap stuff to give it a medical 1235 00:49:37,829 --> 00:49:35,520 taste 1236 00:49:38,870 --> 00:49:37,839 adopt any name you choose the more 1237 00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:38,880 nonsensical 1238 00:49:42,950 --> 00:49:42,319 or mysterious the better one having an 1239 00:49:46,230 --> 00:49:42,960 indian 1240 00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:46,240 or japanese or turkish sound will be all 1241 00:49:49,750 --> 00:49:47,280 the better 1242 00:49:50,390 --> 00:49:49,760 employ the glass blower or printer or 1243 00:49:53,349 --> 00:49:50,400 both 1244 00:49:54,470 --> 00:49:53,359 to get up fanciful bottles or boxes or 1245 00:49:57,109 --> 00:49:54,480 labels 1246 00:49:57,990 --> 00:49:57,119 look out that the packages contents 1247 00:50:01,510 --> 00:49:58,000 included 1248 00:50:03,589 --> 00:50:01,520 don't cost over five or eight cents 1249 00:50:05,589 --> 00:50:03,599 assume for yourself a name as near to 1250 00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:05,599 that of some noted physician 1251 00:50:12,230 --> 00:50:09,200 as you dare go and add to the end of it 1252 00:50:16,230 --> 00:50:12,240 md frs d 1253 00:50:17,109 --> 00:50:16,240 m d etc write a long story about your 1254 00:50:20,470 --> 00:50:17,119 great age 1255 00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:20,480 experience and great successes abroad 1256 00:50:25,430 --> 00:50:23,680 invent 50 to 100 or 1 000 1257 00:50:27,829 --> 00:50:25,440 wonderful cures brought by your 1258 00:50:31,510 --> 00:50:27,839 medicines giving names in full 1259 00:50:34,470 --> 00:50:31,520 with residences dates etc but 1260 00:50:36,069 --> 00:50:34,480 be careful not to blunder into giving 1261 00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:36,079 any real name of any 1262 00:50:41,990 --> 00:50:39,440 person living in the same place 1263 00:50:43,750 --> 00:50:42,000 these matters arranged advertise your 1264 00:50:45,910 --> 00:50:43,760 medicines largely 1265 00:50:48,069 --> 00:50:45,920 print and scatter circulars pamphlets 1266 00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:48,079 and pictures by the time 1267 00:50:51,510 --> 00:50:50,880 the result you will reach a multitude of 1268 00:50:53,829 --> 00:50:51,520 weak 1269 00:50:54,549 --> 00:50:53,839 nervous ignorant people who are slightly 1270 00:50:57,630 --> 00:50:54,559 ailing 1271 00:51:00,790 --> 00:50:57,640 or think they are they will take your 1272 00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:00,800 stimulating or tonic preparations 1273 00:51:07,030 --> 00:51:04,720 and feel better right away 1274 00:51:08,470 --> 00:51:07,040 they will believe they have escaped or 1275 00:51:11,750 --> 00:51:08,480 have been cured 1276 00:51:12,309 --> 00:51:11,760 from some terrible disease the symptoms 1277 00:51:15,109 --> 00:51:12,319 of which 1278 00:51:16,069 --> 00:51:15,119 you should take good care to set forth 1279 00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:16,079 vividly 1280 00:51:20,230 --> 00:51:18,400 in your circulars henceforth you have 1281 00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:20,240 not only a regular customer 1282 00:51:23,829 --> 00:51:22,720 but one who will sign your certificates 1283 00:51:26,790 --> 00:51:23,839 of cure 1284 00:51:27,109 --> 00:51:26,800 as strong as you can write them and who 1285 00:51:29,510 --> 00:51:27,119 will 1286 00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:29,520 talk up the wonderful virtues of your 1287 00:51:33,589 --> 00:51:30,480 medicines 1288 00:51:37,349 --> 00:51:35,349 and that wonderful bit of advice was 1289 00:51:40,309 --> 00:51:37,359 printed in the armadale express 1290 00:51:42,750 --> 00:51:40,319 and new england advertiser dated the 1291 00:51:45,460 --> 00:51:42,760 22nd of november 1292 00:51:48,230 --> 00:51:45,470 1873 1293 00:51:50,309 --> 00:51:48,240 [Music] 1294 00:51:52,150 --> 00:51:50,319 well there we are another interesting 1295 00:51:54,150 --> 00:51:52,160 trip through the pages of gazette's 1296 00:51:56,069 --> 00:51:54,160 weeklies periodicals magazines 1297 00:51:59,349 --> 00:51:56,079 publications 1298 00:52:01,190 --> 00:51:59,359 in australian history and uh 1299 00:52:02,829 --> 00:52:01,200 you can enjoy such an interesting trip 1300 00:52:06,820 --> 00:52:02,839 yourself by visiting 1301 00:52:10,950 --> 00:52:09,830 [Music] 1302 00:52:31,109 --> 00:52:10,960 [Applause] 1303 00:52:31,119 --> 00:52:34,490 punt tv 1304 00:52:34,500 --> 00:52:47,829 [Applause] 1305 00:52:51,270 --> 00:52:49,270 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1306 00:52:52,630 --> 00:52:51,280 zone podcast this week 1307 00:52:54,309 --> 00:52:52,640 and thank you to those people who 1308 00:52:56,069 --> 00:52:54,319 continue to support the skeptic's own 1309 00:52:58,950 --> 00:52:56,079 patreon or paypal 1310 00:53:01,190 --> 00:52:58,960 this year more than ever more than ever 1311 00:53:04,390 --> 00:53:01,200 the skeptic zone needs your support 1312 00:53:05,589 --> 00:53:04,400 even if you decide to chip in for five 1313 00:53:10,870 --> 00:53:05,599 dollars 1314 00:53:13,990 --> 00:53:10,880 will go a long way here 1315 00:53:17,030 --> 00:53:14,000 at the skeptic zone in fact it won't 1316 00:53:18,069 --> 00:53:17,040 be too much longer where i will actually 1317 00:53:20,230 --> 00:53:18,079 need to buy 1318 00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:20,240 a little bit of new equipment because 1319 00:53:23,910 --> 00:53:21,280 the uh 1320 00:53:24,950 --> 00:53:23,920 some of the devices i've been using to 1321 00:53:26,790 --> 00:53:24,960 uh do the show 1322 00:53:27,990 --> 00:53:26,800 are starting to feel their age a little 1323 00:53:30,150 --> 00:53:28,000 bit and 1324 00:53:31,589 --> 00:53:30,160 those skeptics own cats insist on being 1325 00:53:32,790 --> 00:53:31,599 fed every day so you know there are 1326 00:53:35,190 --> 00:53:32,800 bills to pay 1327 00:53:37,349 --> 00:53:35,200 it's less than two weeks to go now until 1328 00:53:39,190 --> 00:53:37,359 skepticon 2020 the australian skeptics 1329 00:53:40,790 --> 00:53:39,200 national convention 1330 00:53:42,470 --> 00:53:40,800 really looking forward to that what a 1331 00:53:44,390 --> 00:53:42,480 lineup of international and local 1332 00:53:46,470 --> 00:53:44,400 speakers we have for you 1333 00:53:47,430 --> 00:53:46,480 well i should say that the good folks at 1334 00:53:49,190 --> 00:53:47,440 the gold coast 1335 00:53:50,710 --> 00:53:49,200 skeptics who are hosting the convention 1336 00:53:53,990 --> 00:53:50,720 this year and they've put a lot of 1337 00:53:57,589 --> 00:53:54,000 time and effort into lining up lots of 1338 00:53:59,109 --> 00:53:57,599 guests and the technical part you know 1339 00:54:00,069 --> 00:53:59,119 making sure this is all going to work 1340 00:54:02,950 --> 00:54:00,079 online 1341 00:54:04,790 --> 00:54:02,960 when you tune in so to speak so you can 1342 00:54:06,309 --> 00:54:04,800 enjoy this convention no matter where 1343 00:54:10,870 --> 00:54:06,319 you are around the world 1344 00:54:12,710 --> 00:54:10,880 skepticon 2020 head to skepticon.org 1345 00:54:14,069 --> 00:54:12,720 you still have two weeks left to get 1346 00:54:16,390 --> 00:54:14,079 your tickets 1347 00:54:18,309 --> 00:54:16,400 sit back in the comfort of your own home 1348 00:54:21,430 --> 00:54:18,319 and enjoy the wonderful talks 1349 00:54:22,630 --> 00:54:21,440 over the weekend and that's the 23rd to 1350 00:54:25,190 --> 00:54:22,640 the 25th 1351 00:54:26,790 --> 00:54:25,200 of this month coming up on next week's 1352 00:54:28,630 --> 00:54:26,800 show part three 1353 00:54:30,390 --> 00:54:28,640 part three of the interview with brian 1354 00:54:32,549 --> 00:54:30,400 dear from heidi robinson and that'll be 1355 00:54:34,549 --> 00:54:32,559 the final part of that series 1356 00:54:36,309 --> 00:54:34,559 more logical fallacies with michelle 1357 00:54:37,190 --> 00:54:36,319 bicker's mom michelle we'll be looking 1358 00:54:40,470 --> 00:54:37,200 at 1359 00:54:42,470 --> 00:54:40,480 weasel words another reading from the 1360 00:54:45,510 --> 00:54:42,480 book of tim 1361 00:54:48,150 --> 00:54:45,520 and also we'll be diving into trove once 1362 00:54:51,990 --> 00:54:48,160 more and looking for references to 1363 00:54:55,349 --> 00:54:52,000 e s p a term you don't hear 1364 00:54:57,190 --> 00:54:55,359 much anymore but for this week this is 1365 00:55:02,950 --> 00:54:57,200 richard saunders signing off 1366 00:55:06,150 --> 00:55:04,710 you've been listening to the skeptic 1367 00:55:09,390 --> 00:55:06,160 zone podcast 1368 00:55:10,789 --> 00:55:09,400 please visit our website at 1369 00:55:13,829 --> 00:55:10,799 www.skepticzone.tv 1370 00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:13,839 for show notes contacts and to access 1371 00:55:19,349 --> 00:55:15,839 the back catalog of episodes 1372 00:55:21,430 --> 00:55:19,359 going back to 2008. you can follow the 1373 00:55:24,870 --> 00:55:21,440 skepticzone podcast on twitter 1374 00:55:28,390 --> 00:55:24,880 at skepticzone visit our facebook page 1375 00:55:29,829 --> 00:55:28,400 or leave a review on itunes you can also 1376 00:55:33,030 --> 00:55:29,839 support the skeptic zone 1377 00:55:34,069 --> 00:55:33,040 via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone 1378 00:55:36,789 --> 00:55:34,079 podcast is 1379 00:55:38,870 --> 00:55:36,799 an independent production the views and 1380 00:55:40,870 --> 00:55:38,880 opinions expressed on the skeptic zone 1381 00:55:42,150 --> 00:55:40,880 are not necessarily those of australian 1382 00:55:55,190 --> 00:55:42,160 skeptics or 1383 00:55:58,870 --> 00:55:56,870 hello to the afterthoughts the people 1384 00:56:01,109 --> 00:55:58,880 who listen after the music for the dice 1385 00:56:05,510 --> 00:56:01,119 game this is where we roll a die 1386 00:56:09,510 --> 00:56:05,520 of um varying sizes or 1387 00:56:12,630 --> 00:56:09,520 values this week it's a d6 a good old d6 1388 00:56:13,589 --> 00:56:12,640 the classic die well this one i picked 1389 00:56:15,750 --> 00:56:13,599 up in 1390 00:56:18,069 --> 00:56:15,760 albuquerque new mexico it's got aliens 1391 00:56:19,510 --> 00:56:18,079 on it spaceships and aliens 1392 00:56:21,430 --> 00:56:19,520 i'm going to roll this three times and 1393 00:56:23,589 --> 00:56:21,440 you use your predicting power with my 1394 00:56:27,510 --> 00:56:23,599 skeptic's own pen to write these down 1395 00:56:29,349 --> 00:56:27,520 to um predict the number 1396 00:56:30,870 --> 00:56:29,359 here i go i'm going to roll it once now 1397 00:56:32,470 --> 00:56:30,880 or the first time i mean 1398 00:56:34,789 --> 00:56:32,480 are you predicting are you guessing are 1399 00:56:36,630 --> 00:56:34,799 you looking into the future are your 1400 00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:36,640 spirit guides telling you something here 1401 00:56:38,470 --> 00:56:37,210 we go 1402 00:56:44,069 --> 00:56:38,480 [Music] 1403 00:56:46,390 --> 00:56:44,079 crunch crunch crunch it's a number four 1404 00:56:48,069 --> 00:56:46,400 hmm i think i have to get a new skeptics 1405 00:56:50,470 --> 00:56:48,079 on chair this one's so 1406 00:56:51,990 --> 00:56:50,480 creaky anyway number four next one 1407 00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:52,000 coming is here we go 1408 00:56:59,990 --> 00:56:56,720 rolling it now number one 1409 00:57:02,069 --> 00:57:00,000 number one yes i know susan i know susan 1410 00:57:03,829 --> 00:57:02,079 gerbic always guesses five i'll see what 1411 00:57:07,190 --> 00:57:03,839 i can do for you 1412 00:57:10,789 --> 00:57:07,200 here it comes oh susan 1413 00:57:13,589 --> 00:57:10,799 it's a four so england 1414 00:57:14,950 --> 00:57:13,599 where's the plane coming over good thing 1415 00:57:16,390 --> 00:57:14,960 this is the part of the show where i 1416 00:57:18,470 --> 00:57:16,400 don't care if planes come over because 1417 00:57:21,670 --> 00:57:18,480 they've been coming over for ages 1418 00:57:23,270 --> 00:57:21,680 this morning so if you remember right at 1419 00:57:25,109 --> 00:57:23,280 the top of the show 1420 00:57:26,870 --> 00:57:25,119 right at the top of shows commenting 1421 00:57:31,190 --> 00:57:26,880 that uh this show is 1422 00:57:31,990 --> 00:57:31,200 number 626 on the 11th which is another 1423 00:57:35,430 --> 00:57:32,000 double number 1424 00:57:36,950 --> 00:57:35,440 number 1425 00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:36,960 and there you are the roll of the dice 1426 00:57:39,190 --> 00:57:38,559 at the end of the show has a four one 1427 00:57:42,710 --> 00:57:39,200 and a four 1428 00:57:46,829 --> 00:57:42,720 so two fours hmm